Episode 66

full
Published on:

16th Jul 2026

Boys' Emotional Lives and the Centrality of Relationships to their Development - Dr Judy Y Chu

Boys are often portrayed as incapable of or uninterested in developing emotionally close relationships. But Dr Judy Y Chu’s pioneering research shows that from a young age boys show significant relational capacities, such as empathy for others, emotional sensitivity, articulacy and attentiveness. In this episode, she describes the process of boys’ development, highlighting how, as they age, they come under pressure to conform to patriarchal norms of ‘being a man’. Despite the privileges that patriarchy confers, when pressured to ‘prove’ their masculinity by eschewing anything deemed feminine, adolescent boys learn to deny and devalue their emotional range and relational qualities. By hindering the emotionally close relationships they need to thrive, boys’ gender socialisation can make them more susceptible to psychological and social harms, such as mental health issues, alcohol and drug misuse, and violence. Responding to these issues and wider cultural pressures such as the Manosphere, Judy emphasises that we can support boys’ healthy development by normalising their capacity for emotionally close relations and helping them to recognise and resist restrictive masculine norms.

Judy is an educator and researcher whose work examines boys’ gender socialisation, relationships, and development during early childhood and adolescence, drawing on her long-term collaboration with influential feminist psychologist Professor Carol Gilligan. She is the author of a book called ‘When Boys Become Boys’, and recently contributed a chapter on boys' social and emotional development to the ‘Oxford Handbook on Masculinities and Mental Health’.

For over 20 years, Judy taught a course on Boys' Psychosocial Development at Stanford University. She has served in advisory roles for non-profit organizations including Movember, Equimundo, Roots of Empathy, Build Up Boys, The Foundation for Positive Masculinity, and the American Psychological Association’s Task Force on Supporting Boys in Schools.

Episode timeline

  • Intro (00:00-02:32)
  • Boys’ relational capacities (02:32-04:32)
  • How these start to be concealed (04:32-07:49)
  • How hiding their emotional selves can impact boys and men (07:49-11:00)
  • The consequences for their relationships (11:00-14:14)
  • Possibilities for reconnection with these emotional capabilities (14:14-17:28)
  • What adults can do to help boys resist restrictive masculine norms (17:28-21:47)
  • Break (21:47-21:59)
  • Judy’s methodological approach (21:59-27:42)
  • Examples of boys’ resistance which have stayed with Judy (27:42-34:50)
  • How the suppression of boys’ relationality can damage their self-esteem (34:50-39:57)
  • What got Judy interested in feminist research with boys (39:57-47:24)
  • How it affects her as a parent (47:24-51:46)
  • How to respond to young men being drawn into the Manosphere (51:46-58:11)
  • Conclusion (58:11-01:07:52)

More info

Music: 'Now is time', courtesy of Chaps' Choir and Dom Stichbury. Please note that the transcript is a rough estimation and is likely to contain errors - please do not reproduce it without permission.

Transcript
Stephen Burrell:

Hi everybody, and welcome to Now and Men, the podcast on changing masculinities and challenging norms.

Stephen Burrell:

I'm Stephen Burrell and I'm here with my co-host, Sandy Ruxton.

Stephen Burrell:

Uh, how are things with you, Sandy?

Sandy Ruxton:

Uh, yes.

Sandy Ruxton:

Hi, everyone.

Sandy Ruxton:

I'm fine.

Sandy Ruxton:

Thank you, Stephen.

Sandy Ruxton:

Um, I should apologise really, there's been a bit of a gap since our last episode, and that's because I've been in moving house and I currently don't have, uh, wifi in my current house.

Sandy Ruxton:

So I'm at, uh, a friend's house, Nikki Van der Gaag, and Nikki was the second ever guest on our podcast.

Sandy Ruxton:

So, uh, thanks to her for, um, donating this space for, for this morning.

Stephen Burrell:

Yes, and we would encourage people to go back and listen to our episode with Nikki, if you haven't done so yet.

Stephen Burrell:

Um, I'm visiting the UK myself at the moment, and I've been enjoying following the, uh, men's football World Cup, uh, as long as it's not being, you know, tampered with by

Stephen Burrell:

governments or footballing authorities who seem to have a habit of ruining these things.

Stephen Burrell:

But, um, yes, but I've also been enjoying following the, um, how the, uh, kind of right wing politician Nigel Farage has given up his seat and is yet recontesting it in a

Stephen Burrell:

byelection, and is the only person challenging him is somebody called Count Binface.

Stephen Burrell:

So if you're not familiar with UK politics, I can recommend checking that out if you wanna laugh.

Stephen Burrell:

Um, but I'm very excited to have with us today, uh, Dr. Judy Chu, whose work has had a bigger impact on me personally.

Stephen Burrell:

Um, yeah.

Stephen Burrell:

And Judy is an educator and researcher whose work examines boys' gender socialisation their relationships and development, especially during early childhood and adolescence.

Stephen Burrell:

And she's the author of an excellent book called When Boys Become Boys and has also, uh, for example, recently contributed a chapter on boys social and emotional development to the Oxford

Stephen Burrell:

Handbook on Masculinities and Mental Health, which is scheduled for release later this year.

Sandy Ruxton:

And for over 20 years.

Sandy Ruxton:

Uh, Judy taught a course on Boys Psychosocial Development at Stanford University.

Sandy Ruxton:

She's also served in advisory roles for nonprofit organisations, including Movember, Equimundo, Roots of Empathy, Buildup Boys, the Foundation for Positive Masculinity,

Sandy Ruxton:

and the American Psychological Association's Task Force on Supporting Boys in Schools.

Sandy Ruxton:

She's currently based in Singapore, which is where she's joining us from today.

Sandy Ruxton:

So, hi Judy, and thanks very much for coming on the show.

Judy Chu:

Hello.

Judy Chu:

Thank you so much for having me.

Sandy Ruxton:

So, um, a vital contribution of your research has been in illustrating that, um, despite the stereotypes at a young age, many boys show significant relational

Sandy Ruxton:

capacities such as empathy for others, emotional sensitivity, articulacy attentiveness.

Sandy Ruxton:

Can you, can you tell us more about that?

Judy Chu:

Absolutely.

Judy Chu:

It's actually very consistent with what researchers who studied infants found so like, it, it's nothing new and it's definitely, it's not something that I, you know, introduced to the field, but

Judy Chu:

it's just consistent with their findings that as human beings, you know, most of us are born into relationships and with a fundamental capacity and a primary desire to connect with other people.

Judy Chu:

I mean, we need it to survive during infancy and childhood, and we needed to thrive, um, throughout the lifespan.

Judy Chu:

And so at every age, you know, having the ability to be emotionally attuned to relate to other people, I mean, these are all things that serve us very well.

Judy Chu:

And so.

Judy Chu:

In a way, when I saw this in boys, it was only surprising because it hadn't been much represented in the literature on boys.

Judy Chu:

I mean, it was always kind of gendered, feminine and expected, you know, something that girls and women do, but not really linked to boys and men.

Judy Chu:

But of course, when you think about it, or anyone who knows a boy or man or is a boy or man knows that boys of course have emotions, of course have feel, you know,

Judy Chu:

feelings and a desire to connect with other people in mutual and meaningful ways.

Judy Chu:

And so, um, a lot of what I did was just to document how we, we see these when we pay attention to it, and it's, uh, just those relational capacities or capabilities are something that tend to get overlooked

Judy Chu:

and underrepresented in the lit academic literature as well as popular discourse in boys everyday lives.

Judy Chu:

But they're absolutely there and they're really, um, important and essential to their ability to navigate their way through the world, um, successfully Right, and effectively.

Sandy Ruxton:

Right.

Judy Chu:

Yeah.

Sandy Ruxton:

But I think, I think I'm right to say that you've also found that as, as boys start to grow older, they learn what they have to do to fit in with being a man in inverted commas and these capabilities start to be suppressed.

Sandy Ruxton:

And, you know, how how does that happen?

Sandy Ruxton:

What, what processes are going on there?

Judy Chu:

Yeah, absolutely.

Judy Chu:

Um, as a part of their gender socialisation, which, um, I describe as kind of the introduction to culturally specific messages about masculinity, what it means to be a real man or a real

Judy Chu:

boy, and also pressures to conform to kind of cultural and group norms around masculinity.

Judy Chu:

So like there's gender policing, like when boys deviate from, um, conventions of masculinity or norms of masculine behaviour.

Judy Chu:

And so the things that they learn that boys learn they're supposed to do and what they are and are not supposed to express, um, in order to prove their masculinity, which is another aspect of it that just the fierce, you

Judy Chu:

know, the, the, the sheer fact that they have to prove their masculinity kind of sets them up to, um, first of all be uncomfortable in their own skin because they have to somehow be, become something else or something

Judy Chu:

more in order to feel worthy or to prove their masculine worth and to feel like they're deserving of love.

Judy Chu:

And then secondly, I mean, it kind of calls on them to really, um, kind of cover up.

Judy Chu:

Certain aspects of their humanity.

Judy Chu:

Like again, these, these relational capabilities because part of proving masculinity is not only aligning with masculine norms, but because in our cultures we so often, um, define masculinity and femininity as mutually exclusive opposites.

Judy Chu:

Then proving masculinity becomes a large, largely about distancing oneself or showing that one is not feminine.

Judy Chu:

So showing that you're a boy involves showing that you're not a girl or showing that you're a man involves showing that you're not a woman.

Judy Chu:

And, and then of course we have kind of, we, our culture and society has science values to that.

Judy Chu:

So if you can be masculine and man up and be all those things that, you know, society associates with men being, having honour and deserving status and being powerful, and then the, the, um, kind of devaluing

Judy Chu:

the systematic and systemic devaluing of femininity being like, oh, well that's soft and that's weak.

Judy Chu:

And that's again okay for women and girls to do it at best, but for men and boys, it becomes a liability because it becomes something that can kind of call them out of what people have come to call them the man box.

Judy Chu:

Right?

Judy Chu:

And so if you are not again, showing that you are a real boy or man, you put yourself sometimes at personal risk, as you know, in terms of physical safety, people can tease you, they can exclude you, they can unfortunately bully you.

Judy Chu:

Or the worse based on this kind of, um.

Judy Chu:

What my, my students call it is a trap, but it's kind of based on this, a system of societal expectations saying, first of all, you have to prove yourself, this is how you prove it.

Judy Chu:

And then when you step outside of that box, when you, when you fail to prove yourself in the ways that we prescribe, then we can legitimately punish you and, you know, either socially or relationally or in

Judy Chu:

terms of, you know, your status and your, your, um, legitimacy as a, as a male, as a masculine person.

Stephen Burrell:

Yeah.

Stephen Burrell:

And I guess if this, if the current situation was so natural, then why would it cause so much pain to so many men, I suppose.

Stephen Burrell:

Right.

Stephen Burrell:

And I suppose on that, on that note, um, yeah.

Stephen Burrell:

Could you say a bit about anything you found in terms of what kinds of impacts does it have on, on boys and, and men, you know, that they have to learn to suppress these, you know, huge parts of themselves, I suppose?

Judy Chu:

Well, Stephen, I think you make a great point.

Judy Chu:

I mean, it's, if it were natural, then we wouldn't need gender policing, right?

Judy Chu:

We wouldn't need to punish boys and men who somehow deviate from these norms.

Judy Chu:

If it came, if it was actually how they wanted to be, they would just be it, you know?

Judy Chu:

And so we wouldn't need to, we wouldn't need to reinforce and, and, and all those things.

Judy Chu:

But, and in terms of, and, and that's exactly where the impact comes in, because it's not, I really don't believe that it's about, like, um, telling boys how to be right.

Judy Chu:

And I think that's where they struggle.

Judy Chu:

It's like, and, and also it's not, not simply about, I mean, I know that there's a lot of concern about some messages about masculinity that are harmful, right?

Judy Chu:

And then, and obviously if it's causing them harm to themselves or to harm other people, we definitely wanna challenge and replace those, but kind of move, making progress is not

Judy Chu:

simply about replacing one list of externally imposed expectations with another list, right?

Judy Chu:

Mm-hmm.

Judy Chu:

We are not saying like, oh, instead of being macho, go be sensitive or something, because it's really about what feels true and authentic and whole to them.

Judy Chu:

And so, like, you know, some boys may be more shy, right?

Judy Chu:

And so telling them that they have to, you know, that they have to talk about their feelings all the time.

Judy Chu:

I mean, that might not feel natural to them.

Judy Chu:

And so, and, and again, it, it's more of an individual difference.

Judy Chu:

'cause some boys may be very outspoken and want, you know, and not mind the, so it's really about kind of, um.

Judy Chu:

I think the impact comes when boys feel like they have to, they can't value all of who, everything about themselves, like who they are.

Judy Chu:

They're the, the full range of their humanity when they're made to, when they're led to feel shame for feeling sadness or fear or anything that they're told is not an un, is not a manly emotion or thought to have.

Judy Chu:

And then, you know, kind of that the, the, um, the kind of repercussions of having to present yourself or posture in a way that doesn't reflect who you are, that not only hurts, you know, causes men and

Judy Chu:

boys to have to kind of compartmentalise or, or kind of separate break off from parts of themselves.

Judy Chu:

But it also makes it very difficult, if not impossible, for them to feel known and understood by someone else, which is, and as we now know, so important, those kinds of relationships, um,

Judy Chu:

close relationships that feel mutual and trusting and so supportive are so important to wellbeing.

Judy Chu:

And so that places boys and men at a disadvantage in a world where everything's getting harder, no one can go it alone, and if they can't lean on other people because it's seen as a, as a

Judy Chu:

girly or feminine or somehow weak thing to do that, um, it, it leads to all sorts of problems.

Judy Chu:

Everything from loneliness and social, I isolation to anxiety, depression, and all the things that, you know, we wouldn't wish on anyone, but which are increasingly prominent.

Stephen Burrell:

Mm. Yeah, I mean, you were listing some emotions there.

Stephen Burrell:

I was also thinking about joy.

Stephen Burrell:

I mean, I feel like, um, even expressions of joy right?

Stephen Burrell:

Aren't necessarily seen as very manly.

Stephen Burrell:

Um, but, uh, absolutely.

Stephen Burrell:

Yeah.

Stephen Burrell:

And, and just building on what you were saying, um, I guess a key insight from your work, and also I think you've worked, for example, with Carol Gilligan, who's done amazing

Stephen Burrell:

research with girls as well, uh, around this, you know, it has this really important insight.

Stephen Burrell:

Um, you know, this kind of tragic irony really, that I suppose in order to try and fit in and have relationships with others in the process, we have to actually learn to, you know, push down many of

Stephen Burrell:

the things that actually make relationships so important and so meaningful in the first place, I guess.

Judy Chu:

Absolutely.

Judy Chu:

And I, I love that you mentioned joy, because I think that's absolutely true.

Judy Chu:

I mean, it's kind of like this in an effort when boys in an effort to kind of appear nonchalant.

Judy Chu:

I think that was one of the words that was recently trending that my students told me about.

Judy Chu:

And it was funny 'cause she's like, she's like, that's the student that brought it up says, so I don't know what they're supposed to be like.

Judy Chu:

Shalon just thought that was a really funny twist on it.

Judy Chu:

But like, yeah, joy.

Judy Chu:

Absolutely.

Judy Chu:

I saw that with the four year olds.

Judy Chu:

Like, you know, someone would come in, you know, a special guest or something, brought animals to the classroom and their kids are of course totally excited.

Judy Chu:

And this one boy starts jumping up and down 'cause he just can't wait.

Judy Chu:

And the other boys are like, you know, and they, they literally said, you know, shut up.

Judy Chu:

And he didn't say anything.

Judy Chu:

He, but what they meant was to tamp that down.

Judy Chu:

Like, you, you can't experience that exuberance.

Judy Chu:

That is actually when we, when Carol and I spoke to the boys' fathers and met with them and Carol asked this wonderful question of like, you know, what do you see in your boys at this age that makes you think, I hope he never loses that.

Judy Chu:

And the father spoke about, you know, exactly that the boys' joy, their exuberance, their pleasure in each other's company, how they love their friends, how they would get really excited and, you know, about everything.

Judy Chu:

And that, that's something that's seen as like, not, well this is not a word anymore, I guess, but I use it, but not cool, you know?

Judy Chu:

Mm-hmm.

Judy Chu:

You have to kind of just make sure you just don't really care.

Judy Chu:

Like whatever.

Judy Chu:

You have to just not care.

Judy Chu:

And so I think one of the things that boys perceive is that they don't have permission to care.

Judy Chu:

Like, to care about things, to care about people.

Judy Chu:

You know, everything has to kind of be like, well, whatever, you know, I'll take it or leave it.

Judy Chu:

I don't need this, I don't need that.

Judy Chu:

I don't need these people.

Judy Chu:

If my best friend doesn't wanna be my best friend anymore, you know, whatever.

Judy Chu:

And that it's, it's just like this dulling and this kind of numbing that doesn't of, of course doesn't serve them well and it doesn't make them feel good.

Judy Chu:

Um, and so, you know, it, it's, it's really a heartbreaking loss to see because they do go from feeling everything really, you know, fully to feeling like they have to, you know, really be in control all the time.

Judy Chu:

Which again, is, is asking kind of.

Judy Chu:

Them to be inhuman in, in some ways because we all need to feel, and then we know that when we suppress those emotions, it doesn't make them go away.

Judy Chu:

They don't somehow dissipate, but they actually, you know, can become troublesome if they're negative emotions that really need to be dealt with and addressed and acknowledged and discussed, so.

Stephen Burrell:

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Burrell:

Yeah.

Stephen Burrell:

I mean, on that note, do you think, is it possible to kind of relearn and reconnect with these parts of ourselves, you know, once they start to become suppressed, do you think it is possible to Yeah.

Stephen Burrell:

To regain those, those skills and, yeah,

Judy Chu:

I think absolutely.

Judy Chu:

I mean, at least, you know, in, in the study that I did with, um, the studies that I did with early childhood boys and boys at adolescents, it really isn't about losing their relational capabilities.

Judy Chu:

It's, they learn to cover them up in a, in what's very self-protective and actually socially adaptive.

Judy Chu:

'cause when you have people saying, Hey, if you want social approval and acceptance, you need to be X, Y, and Z, then, you know, and they, they do it because, not because they're told they have to do it to be men, they

Judy Chu:

do it because they wanna connect with other people and they find that this is what's going to help them do it.

Judy Chu:

I mean, the, the tragedy is that when they adopt those behaviours, they actually make it so much more difficult to engage in any, any way that feels authentic with the people that they're trying to have relationships with.

Judy Chu:

But, um, but I don't think, um, what I found, especially 'cause I've seen evidence in older adolescents, I've read about research that finds this in adult men.

Judy Chu:

It's Stuart Miller's book, as you might know, Men's Friendships, throughout their lives, men are still seeking, you know, we continue, people of all genders to seek connections and resist disconnections throughout our lives.

Judy Chu:

And so that is evidence of a healthy resistance against impositions that call for us to, that undermine our sense of integrity that say you cannot remain connected to your own thoughts and feelings and desires.

Judy Chu:

And that also hinder our relationships by making it harder for us to know and be known by other people.

Judy Chu:

But the health, the evidence of boys healthy resistance shows that they continue, again, throughout the lifespan to be interested and invested in being known for a version of themselves that feels authentic and whole.

Judy Chu:

You know?

Judy Chu:

And so, and, and so when they can find a space, and this is why some of the, you know, programmatic work that people are doing in communities is so important is 'cause they're creating spaces.

Judy Chu:

'cause you can't just say to an individual, oh well, you know, embrace this about yourself.

Judy Chu:

Go out and do it.

Judy Chu:

If the world and their context, the peer, you know, peer group cultures are still hostile or they're gonna get policed.

Judy Chu:

'cause that's just putting, placing them in danger.

Judy Chu:

And so it's, but when, when, um, when leaders and educators and parents and entire societies work to kind of facilitate or create spaces that feel safe to them, that really welcome and genuinely value boys as whole

Judy Chu:

people and men as whole people, then you, you see that emerge and, and it's, so I, I've seen it happen.

Judy Chu:

I know Terry Real does work with this.

Judy Chu:

I know a lot of, actually a lot of people who, who create these wonderful does this as well, create these wonderful spaces so that men and boys who people had kind of figured, oh, they just don't, they're just not interested.

Judy Chu:

They're just not able to talk about it.

Judy Chu:

They're able to do that when they're, when they perceive that this is something that's not going to lead to for, you know, lead to shame or emasculation or, or, or somehow, you know, rejection and ridicule.

Sandy Ruxton:

Hmm.

Sandy Ruxton:

And you mentioned there, you know, the role of parents, teachers, family members.

Sandy Ruxton:

I just wanted to, is there anything else else you wanted to say about, you know, how they can help boys to acknowledge rather than hide, you know, these aspects of themselves?

Judy Chu:

Absolutely.

Judy Chu:

Everyone in boys' lives has, you know, has the potential to make an enormous difference.

Judy Chu:

I mean, you know, that there's this, this one study that was done in the US by Michael Resnick, and their whole like, enormous team of researchers.

Judy Chu:

It was a longitudinal study.

Judy Chu:

They studied like, you know, 90,000 people and they found that the single best protector against psychological risk like depression, low self-esteem and social risk, like dropping outta school using substances, you know, um, unintended

Judy Chu:

pregnancy was having access to at least one close confiding relationship where they felt known and seen and supported.

Judy Chu:

And, you know, and that could be with anyone.

Judy Chu:

It could be with a parent, a sibling, a teacher, a coach.

Judy Chu:

But having that, the adolescents who had that protective relationship, that kind of protective relationship, were much better off.

Judy Chu:

It's not that they didn't experience struggle or that they didn't face challenges.

Judy Chu:

Of course they do 'cause that's inevitable in life.

Judy Chu:

But that they were able to weather it better, that their relat, their resilience and their resistance was supported by those relationships.

Judy Chu:

And so, and of course, you know, we know about role modelling, but also just the simple validation that somebody is willing to make that space and invite you to show up in the ways

Judy Chu:

that feel comfortable and not, you know, allow you to be fully present in the relationship.

Judy Chu:

And that, that is, has such a powerful impact on kids.

Judy Chu:

And so even an individual parent teacher or anyone who is interacting with boys who can do that for them, helps them to see how it's possible for them to be in the world and with other people.

Judy Chu:

Because that's kind of the task of child.

Judy Chu:

One of the tasks of childhood and adolescence, right, is boys or, you know, people of all genders actually are figuring out how is it possible for me as a boy, as a, you know, all the intersections of identity again, as, as, as who I am.

Judy Chu:

How is it possible for me to be with other people and in the world?

Judy Chu:

How can I contribute?

Judy Chu:

What, what's acceptable?

Judy Chu:

What's going to be desirable?

Judy Chu:

Will people love me as I am?

Judy Chu:

And so when they are shown that yes, there's at least one person, then they, they, that encourages them to feel like, okay, it.

Judy Chu:

I can, I can do this and not be completely have to be, you know, on my own.

Judy Chu:

I won't be rejected and cast out if I show somebody who I am.

Judy Chu:

And, but the part of it is the reality, um, that unfortunately not every space, not every person is safe in that way.

Judy Chu:

And so I think that as boys grow up, one of the things that I observed with the four year olds, for instance, was that they become savvy and selective.

Judy Chu:

You know, they become careful about what they reveal about themselves and to whom they reveal those things.

Judy Chu:

And again, as long as they can have at least one person who says, yeah, you know, that makes sense, or I, I, I I get that, you know, and, you know, of course this is hard or I, I see how this, how you're struggling with this.

Judy Chu:

I see you and you're fine.

Judy Chu:

There's nothing wrong with you.

Judy Chu:

We'll get through this together.

Judy Chu:

Those are such powerful.

Judy Chu:

It, it seems small, but it can be so powerful for children.

Judy Chu:

You know, if you ask adolescent older adolescents, like, what was it that enabled you to become and get to arrive at where you are now?

Judy Chu:

Oftentimes it's these little things that I, I bet the person who said them doesn't remember saying, it wasn't like some sort of like, haha, you know, moment where they, they feel like this, this is the moment that my life changed.

Judy Chu:

But, you know, at least from the adult's point of view or the other person view, but on the person who heard it, it made all the difference.

Judy Chu:

And so, um, coming back to your question about, you know, what parents and teachers can do and the difference that they can make, I think they make a huge difference, um, in, in these boys' lives.

Judy Chu:

Because when they're in a world, especially now where it kind of not so helpful messages can get really easily amplified, you know, through social media and stuff

Judy Chu:

more now, more than ever, boys need to hear like, what do people really value in them?

Judy Chu:

You know, and what can people handle?

Judy Chu:

You know, them showing of, of themselves, like what, what they can reveal.

Stephen Burrell:

You've used some really interesting methods in your research, Judy, including with, as you've mentioned, with very young boys.

Stephen Burrell:

Um, so I was wondering if you could perhaps just tell us a bit more about your approach, like how do you go about conducting your research, generating these insights, um, with boys and young men?

Judy Chu:

Oh, absolutely.

Judy Chu:

And that actually links to when something you had asked earlier about, you know, Carol Gilligan, who was my advisor and supervised and guided my research.

Judy Chu:

And one of the reasons why, you know, given the history of psychological and developmental research and how it had focused primarily on boys and men, one of the questions that I often would receive is

Judy Chu:

like, why do we need to study boys again if they were the bulk of, you know, the research participants?

Judy Chu:

And one of the things that had, had really drawn me was the, um, of what Carol and her colleagues called developed, called the voice centred Relational Method.

Judy Chu:

And that was this idea that we would learn from people about their experiences by focusing on their perspectives and by acknowledging that what they share with us about

Judy Chu:

their lives is going to depend a lot on the relationship that we develop with them.

Judy Chu:

So if they trust us, if they feel comfortable, that that would make a difference.

Judy Chu:

And, and of course that's, you know, when we think about it, of course, what people tell us about themselves is going to, um, depend on what they think we're going to do with that information.

Judy Chu:

Whether we will, you know, be able to sit with them in that space.

Judy Chu:

Um, and no one had really, um, it was really coming out of a time when that was more focused on kind of quantitative methods, which are not problematic in and of themselves.

Judy Chu:

I definitely can, you know, appreciate the value of certain questions being answered best by quantitative methods.

Judy Chu:

But this idea, um, you know, Carol's work really emphasise that you can learn about someone's inner world if they, you know, by, by creating circumstances that enable them to convey, convey their thoughts and feelings to you.

Judy Chu:

And, um, I was really interested to see like, what would, what would we learn about what boys can, are capable of knowing and doing in their relationships if we created circumstances that

Judy Chu:

invited them to talk about their experiences without feeling like there was a right answer.

Judy Chu:

You know, like, what's going on with them?

Judy Chu:

You know, what's going on?

Judy Chu:

And I, and so that was, um, kind of at the heart of it was just kind of this attention to if you develop a non-judgmental situation, if you create a non, a trusting non-judgmental space, you know, what are you able to see?

Judy Chu:

And so I used a lot of things from, for instance, eth, you know, ethno ethnography and anthropology.

Judy Chu:

So kind of going in as a participant observer, definitely starting out by just kind of getting a sense, looking to the boys as my informants, if you will, and kind of

Judy Chu:

saying to them, you know, I am really interested to learn what's happening with boys.

Judy Chu:

I myself, I've never been a boy, and so I'm, you know, I'm looking to you as my teachers to kind of find out like what it's like.

Judy Chu:

And that ha, that worked really well with the adolescent boys that I studied, as well as with the young boys.

Judy Chu:

And they kind of took it, took me under their wing and they were very generous and very thoughtful.

Judy Chu:

And sometimes, you know, they'd even say like, oh, Judy, you need to see this because if you wanna know what it's like to be a boy, this, you know, and so, and, and they were, you know, both age groups were amazing.

Judy Chu:

And, and I, and that was part of actually what fed, you know, what became my findings too, was like I went in kind of having.

Judy Chu:

You know, been grown up with certain stereotypes in my head about what boys wanted to talk about, what a lot of, you know, my friends and colleagues would say, you know,

Judy Chu:

you're going in to talk to adolescent boys, like they're not gonna wanna talk to you.

Judy Chu:

Why, why would they wanna talk to you?

Judy Chu:

And so I went in thinking nobody would wanna talk to me, and was so pleasantly surprised when they were, you know, again, really generous, really thoughtful, had a lot to say.

Judy Chu:

And in fact, that was what actually led to my studying boys, was adolescent boys telling me, you know, everyone's concerned about girls.

Judy Chu:

We get it, we understand and it's great that they wanna support girls, but boys are going through things too and nobody's talking to us.

Judy Chu:

And then when boy said to me, you should study boys, you can start with me.

Judy Chu:

And I kind of went, what?

Judy Chu:

You know?

Judy Chu:

And when I went back and spoke to Carol, who's my, who is my advisor, she said, it sounds like he has something to say.

Judy Chu:

Why don't you go back and, and hear him out?

Judy Chu:

And so that's one of the things that when I present my work, you know, and people say, oh, do you, you know, what do you recommend to adults who are trying to support boys healthy development, who have boys' best interests at heart?

Judy Chu:

You know, what can you do?

Judy Chu:

And I always say like, I, you know, nothing I did was extraordinary.

Judy Chu:

You know, it was really about the boys being able to tell you what they need and what they think and what's going on with them if they know that you're interested, that you're genuinely interested.

Judy Chu:

So usually my first piece of advice is just like, just listen.

Judy Chu:

Like start with listening.

Judy Chu:

And if you can show them that you're, you know, you're not trying to judge them, you're not trying to blame them, criticise them, or somehow determine one thing or another if you're just kind of there to learn from them.

Judy Chu:

And I think that's kind of how some of the best relationships are.

Judy Chu:

Like even people who are married for several years or best friends forever, at the end of the day, the most effective conversations, or the ones that people come away feeling good about are usually

Judy Chu:

when, you know, the sense that that person, whether you've known them forever or just for a short time, really was curious and wanting to learn, you know, what's going on for you today, right now?

Judy Chu:

Like even if I've known you for 20 years, I'm interested in knowing what's happening with you today.

Stephen Burrell:

Yeah, I mean, can you think of any, um, examples which really have stayed with you from your research, for example, of like where boys have been displaying some

Stephen Burrell:

of the kind of resistance you talked about to some of these dominant masculine norms?

Stephen Burrell:

Yeah.

Stephen Burrell:

Is there any examples which Yeah.

Stephen Burrell:

Really struck you?

Judy Chu:

Yeah, I mean, there were some really love, I think at, at the end of the day, like, like I said earlier, the resistance is kind, they're healthy resistance against these, you know, messages or

Judy Chu:

pressures that just don't line up right with who they think they are, how they experience themselves to be.

Judy Chu:

Um, that resistance, you know, kind of comes in two, at least two forms.

Judy Chu:

So one is a resistance against kind of betraying themselves, like saying like they, they feel fine when they don't actually feel fine or that they like to do this when they don't like to do that, you know, for the sake of mm-hmm.

Judy Chu:

You know, wanting to fit in.

Judy Chu:

Um, or as one boy said, I think sometimes the boys as a group, they wanna do, they wanna do this thing and I don't really feel like that, but I don't want them to then target me if I decide to opt out.

Judy Chu:

So there's like a resistance to like feeling like, you know, not wanting to be compromised against their will.

Judy Chu:

Now that's different from like compromise, like, oh yeah, that's okay with me.

Judy Chu:

Like, you know, I want this kind of food today.

Judy Chu:

You want that kind of food.

Judy Chu:

We'll settle on a compromise.

Judy Chu:

I mean, that's different because that's more intentional and, and by choice it's more like feeling like they have no choice or that someone else doesn't care what they want.

Judy Chu:

They have to be this thing regardless.

Judy Chu:

Like you just do it.

Judy Chu:

You could do it because you're supposed to and you have no choice.

Judy Chu:

That there's more of a feeling of resentment and discomfort around that.

Judy Chu:

So there's that kind of resistance.

Judy Chu:

Um.

Judy Chu:

You know, like, you know what, uh, I guess to be given a more specific example was like one of the boys, um, the boys had created a mean team that was, you know, all the, all of the boys were a member.

Judy Chu:

And he said sometimes we're mean, but sometimes we're not.

Judy Chu:

But it's, the boys group was called the mean team.

Judy Chu:

And so sometimes they would actually go do mean things like, oh, you know, the girls had created a, you know, a structure and we went and knocked it, you know, and the boys decided they were gonna go knock it down.

Judy Chu:

And, and I said, oh, well, you know, how do you feel about that?

Judy Chu:

Is that some, you know, is that okay with you?

Judy Chu:

Is that something you wanna do?

Judy Chu:

And he goes, well, you know, sometimes I don't feel like doing it, but I feel like I have to do it.

Judy Chu:

You know, like I said, you know, and the story was like, oh, or else they'll, I'll get mad at me and they'll come after me and they'll do something mean to me.

Judy Chu:

And so there's that kind of res, and then there's also the resistance of being excluded.

Judy Chu:

So the two things that they're trying to preserve are their kind of connection to themselves, like their integrity.

Judy Chu:

Like, this feels right to me.

Judy Chu:

This doesn't feel right to me.

Judy Chu:

I do or don't like or want to do this.

Judy Chu:

And the, the other thing is the resistance to, um, loss of connections to other people.

Judy Chu:

So like, if they're being excluded, there was a huge, it was interesting to me because I think an older boy would not do this, but when the younger boys, like if they're, if for some reason the

Judy Chu:

boys were all playing together and they were trying to exclude this boy, that boy, instead of saying like, oh, you know, kind of resigning to it, he would actually try that much harder to come back.

Judy Chu:

And I always thought that was really.

Judy Chu:

Admirable in some ways, like by saying like, no, that that's not acceptable to me.

Judy Chu:

I wanna be a part of this group, and so I'm going to find a way to be a part of this group.

Judy Chu:

Which, if you compare it to like adolescents, I think there's more, um, it's harder because it's, there's more of an embarrassment, there's more of a sense of shame.

Judy Chu:

And so they'll go off and they'll kind of sit in their shame by themselves when, and, and then maybe, hopefully down the line they'll find kind of a way to come in

Judy Chu:

or, or, or, or kind of connect with somebody else who isn't actively excluding them.

Judy Chu:

But so there's, so there's resistance there too.

Judy Chu:

So, I mean, in terms of the kinds of resistance, there's a resistance against disconnections from themselves and a resistance against disconnections from other people.

Judy Chu:

So they're wanting to preserve their integrity and their relationships.

Judy Chu:

And those were the, those were the kinds of examples I saw.

Judy Chu:

But something even as, as like, every day as like, you know, you can't tell me what to do.

Judy Chu:

You're not the boss of me.

Judy Chu:

That kind of thing.

Judy Chu:

You know, again, saying like, um, or, or one, one boy saying, you know, he and his friend were arguing about what this particular cartoon picture was depicting, and then finally

Judy Chu:

he, you know, and his friend kept saying, insisting that, you know, that he was right.

Judy Chu:

And so the, the, the original boy said, well, you may think that, but I don't.

Judy Chu:

And so that kind of resistance, so it doesn't have to be like some, you know, superhero kind of resistance, like they're fighting off bad guys or something.

Judy Chu:

But it's just like this, these everyday compromises and the, and kind of distinguishing between what am I comfortable giving up, which is no big deal.

Judy Chu:

Like, oh, I wanted the blue one, but now I'm getting the green one.

Judy Chu:

Something like that.

Judy Chu:

Or something like, you know, they want me to do something that does that I don't like, and I'm not on board with that.

Judy Chu:

And, and them trying to figure out like, how do I make this choice?

Judy Chu:

And so all these little tiny things that happen on a daily basis then become, then feed into their sense of, again, how can I be in the world?

Judy Chu:

What can I tell people?

Judy Chu:

If I tell people I don't like this?

Judy Chu:

Are they gonna immediately turn on me and they forget it, then I'm not your friend anymore.

Judy Chu:

Or will they say, yeah, that's fine, and go on and find a way to, and that can be again, to come back to, um, Sandy's question earlier where adults can really model and support kind of, um.

Judy Chu:

More resilient choices.

Judy Chu:

Like, you know, saying like, okay, that's okay, we can have differences.

Judy Chu:

Versus like, oh, if they're different then we don't wanna play with them anymore, or we don't like that person anymore.

Judy Chu:

And so that's something where adults especially, or even older siblings, are continually modelling for younger kids.

Judy Chu:

I know that there's some dispute about like, role modelling, but I really like the example that the Ms. Foundation in the US had a while ago where there's a thing that they had developed called Take Your Daughters to Work Day.

Judy Chu:

You know, because the, you know, they were trying to help girls see that, you know, women can be professionals and, and so, and they said that and they, they were very proud of the fact that that

Judy Chu:

had created something that actually the boys wanted, that the girls had, that the boys wanted.

Judy Chu:

So they said, well, how can we create something for boys?

Judy Chu:

And one of the, um, you know, proposals was be having, um, creating these buttons for men to wear that said, you know, a boy is watching you.

Judy Chu:

What is he learning about, you know, dot, dot, dot, like what it means to be a man, or how men treat women, or what men can express in terms of their emotions or how men can show up in their relationship.

Judy Chu:

I mean, you know, there's a whole bunch of, bunch of possibilities, but it's this idea that we are all role models.

Judy Chu:

Kids are always watching us.

Judy Chu:

They're learning what is possible, what is okay, and how they can be, and you know, the things we do matter.

Judy Chu:

And I, and so it's just this idea that like, we have a lot of power to do good.

Judy Chu:

And when we don't acknowledge and understand that power, we can inadvertently do harm, you know?

Judy Chu:

And so to be more, you know, to be very intentional.

Judy Chu:

'cause, 'cause we, you know, especially parents, you know, for the first several years in your child's life, you are their superhero.

Judy Chu:

You know, you're the one that they're trying to figure out that, that guides them through and provides an example of what an, what did it means to be an adult.

Stephen Burrell:

Something I just connecting to what you were saying, something I found really powerful in your book, um, was where you talk about how, you know, in the process of being taught to kinda doubt and deny and hide these

Stephen Burrell:

major parts of themselves, you know, boys' own self-esteem and sense of self-worth can be significantly damaged.

Stephen Burrell:

And that can then mean that then, um, kinda like you're saying really that then, uh, boys or young men perhaps, or adult men may then lack the kind of confidence to actually challenge their peers, um,

Stephen Burrell:

if they are expressing things like sexism, misogyny, even when they do actually disagree with that.

Stephen Burrell:

Um, yeah.

Stephen Burrell:

Do you wanna say any more about that?

Judy Chu:

Yeah.

Judy Chu:

I mean, well that ties into a huge.

Judy Chu:

Again, kind of coming back to what we talked about, like in terms of socialisation and this, um, and Joseph Pleck pointed out, you know, a long time ago, in 1981, in the myth

Judy Chu:

of masculinity that, you know, these ideals of masculinity are ultimately unattainable.

Judy Chu:

Like, you know, and Irving Goffman pointed sociologists, Irving Goffman pointed out, you know, none of no one can be all of those things all of the time, right?

Judy Chu:

No one can be tough, stoic, self-sufficient, you know, always in control.

Judy Chu:

I mean, even, you know, not just across ages, but even like in a single year of your life, across situations.

Judy Chu:

I mean, just nobody can be all those things.

Judy Chu:

So inevitably they, we will, they'll fall short.

Judy Chu:

And so, like, this is just this idea that they're set up to first of all, prove their masculinity, but to strive towards ideals, which by definition are ultimately unattainable, sets them up so that they will inevitably

Judy Chu:

fall short and to experience shame and low self-esteem and anxiety and depression when they can't keep up that, um, that image, they can't, you know, that that masculine posturing is ultimately not sustainable.

Judy Chu:

Right?

Judy Chu:

And it's also very precarious because again, anyone at any time can challenge it.

Judy Chu:

Like, oh, you're wearing pink, or, oh, you cried at the funeral.

Judy Chu:

Or, you know, sometimes it's outright ridiculous.

Judy Chu:

You know, some of the things that we seem to expect of boys and men, like, oh, they're, they broke their arm and they're crying, and that's somehow not okay.

Judy Chu:

I mean, of course they're gonna cry.

Judy Chu:

They exp you know, they're human and so they experience physical pain.

Judy Chu:

They experience emotional pain.

Judy Chu:

If they lose someone close to them, they're going to feel sad.

Judy Chu:

But to be told that they're not supposed to feel it or show it, it, it just doesn't really make much sense.

Judy Chu:

But it does, again, like when, especially for a younger.

Judy Chu:

Younger boys and men when they're still trying to figure out like, what, what's acceptable?

Judy Chu:

You know, what's normal?

Judy Chu:

And they feel like they are personally flawed because they can't maintain that facade all the time.

Judy Chu:

I mean, you just, your heart kind of just breaks for them, right?

Judy Chu:

Because you just feel like that's so much pressure and it's such a burden to carry.

Judy Chu:

And when they do, you know, enter these spaces, like I said, there's really wonderful pro you know, programming and community work where they're, where adult men oftentimes

Judy Chu:

are really guiding them and showing them, like, look at this is, it's, it's natural.

Judy Chu:

It's normal vulnerability.

Judy Chu:

That's a part of being human and showing your vulnerability.

Judy Chu:

That's courageous.

Judy Chu:

It's not weak.

Judy Chu:

It's really, it takes so much more to show that you're not okay all the time than it is to pretend like you are when you're not.

Judy Chu:

And so, I mean, I think, but, but again, boys who haven't been let behind that curtain to see kind of the reality of what the human experience and the human condition is,

Judy Chu:

they might be vulnerable or at risk for experiencing low self-esteem and damage.

Judy Chu:

'cause they feel like, you know, one um, panel that I saw of adolescent boys, they were saying like, you know, they're struggling, but they were taught to never, never show weakness, never reveal problems.

Judy Chu:

And so he said, he literally did not know how to ask for help.

Judy Chu:

He knew he needed help, but he literally did not know how.

Judy Chu:

He had never seen an, an example of it happening, and no one had ever taught him.

Judy Chu:

So even though I say that the boys relational capabilities, you know, going back to the infant studies, this is an inherent capacity.

Judy Chu:

They're born just like we have the inherent capacity to learn language.

Judy Chu:

We are born with a capacity, but if no one teaches us the language and we don't have room and opportunity to practise, we're not going to learn to speak.

Judy Chu:

Right?

Judy Chu:

And we're not, you know, and so like, I think when some of the more promising programmes in curricula are giving boys not only permission to care and to express a range of emotions, but also the tools they need to really practise

Judy Chu:

and develop and to master it so that they can be, you know, so they can articulate the things that they're feeling.

Judy Chu:

Because as you know, there's an American icon, Mr. Rogers, who says, you know, if you can, what's mentionable is manageable, right?

Judy Chu:

And, and, and absolutely, you know, and Marc Brackett at Yale talks about this too, Permission to Feel, like giving people language to, um, to art, to express and put into words their,

Judy Chu:

you know, emotional intelligence is a very important thing for them to have if they're going to navigate life in ways that are more conducive to mental and physical wellbeing.

Judy Chu:

So, mm-hmm.

Sandy Ruxton:

So, Judy, I, I'd be really interested to know a bit more about how you got involved in this area of research in, in the first place.

Sandy Ruxton:

I mean, you mentioned responding to a boy's, uh, intervention earlier in our.

Sandy Ruxton:

Conversation, but, but was that, was your interest led by boys themselves, or, or was there something for you that, uh, was of interest?

Judy Chu:

Um, well, I think it, it has a lot to, well, it, it has, there's, it's twofold.

Judy Chu:

I mean, one of them was that, you know, when I met Carol, um, as a, when I was a doctoral student, her work just really captured my attention and interest because it just, it was

Judy Chu:

the first time that I had kind of learned about theories that I didn't have to figure out.

Judy Chu:

You know, it just, it just made intuitive sense, right?

Judy Chu:

And so a lot of what she was saying, it just felt so practical, you know, it felt, it really resonated with what I knew from observations and my own experiences.

Judy Chu:

And also just like, you know, like I was saying with the method, it just made, it made sense that, yeah, of course the relationship between the researcher and participant, you know, would matter, especially in qualitative, you know,

Judy Chu:

interviewing, you know, and so a lot of these things were just like, it felt very, um, effortless, like natural.

Judy Chu:

And I was like, oh, well, this is what I wanna do.

Judy Chu:

I mean, I don't wanna, like, I mean, I, I, I've always admired, you know, experiments that were very cleverly designed to kind of trick people into revealing what they thought.

Judy Chu:

But I really love this idea that like, you can also trust people to tell you if you can ex if you can create these conditions.

Judy Chu:

And so I was really, really taken with her method and also as well as with, you know, what her research had revealed, which was this idea, you know, the whole ethic of care that, that, you know, that it wasn't just about

Judy Chu:

reason and logic, but that there's this other part of human ability that really taps into care and relationships.

Judy Chu:

And that the relationships aren't just this kind of optional thing in our development that you can have, and it's great if you have it, but that they're, that relationships are actually central to human development.

Judy Chu:

And that it's through and within relationships that we come to know ourselves, other people and the world that we develop our sense of, you know, who we are and what we're capable of and all these things.

Judy Chu:

And so it, again, it, it, it just made a lot of sense.

Judy Chu:

And I was wonder in when I was reading about her findings about, you know, girls and how when they're socialised towards, you know, cultural constructions of gender, how they could

Judy Chu:

sometimes come up against expectations that really didn't match what they wanted to be.

Judy Chu:

And again, you know, who does, who's not everyone has experienced this like, oh, when some, when other people want you to be a certain way, but it doesn't match who you think you are, or when, or the way that boys are

Judy Chu:

said to be, doesn't match how they experience themselves to be like, how do we reconcile those discrepancies?

Judy Chu:

And, and what does it mean to choose one path as opposed to the other?

Judy Chu:

Because in everything, there's, there are gains and there are costs, and, you know, and we were seeing that, like, for instance, at adolescents, but I think throughout life where social acceptance and, you know, belonging and all those

Judy Chu:

things that we crave on a fundamental level are so important that we might choose things that, you know, for the, not the, for the convenience or the pleasure, but we might, when we're forced to choose between self and relationships.

Judy Chu:

I could see why we might choose relationships, but Carol also made the, you know, Carol's work also pointed out that when we choose relationships at the cost of ourselves,

Judy Chu:

then who's in relationship and how can you know, and, and are those real relations.

Judy Chu:

So I just thought that a lot of her questions were really relevant and really important and that, um, and actually it was my husband who said, well, doesn't this apply to men too?

Judy Chu:

I mean, men need relationships as well.

Judy Chu:

Men also value relationships.

Judy Chu:

It's also important to our development.

Judy Chu:

It makes sense that this would, you know, be something.

Judy Chu:

But again, the literature at the time had not really talked about relationships in that way.

Judy Chu:

Again, it was really seen as a context for development, but that ultimately it was all about, it was very focused on the individual.

Judy Chu:

And even kind of like the goals of development were like, well, you strive towards individuation, you know, separation, proving that you don't need anybody else.

Judy Chu:

And that those, those were markers of maturity.

Judy Chu:

And, and Carol's work really called that into question and said like, you know.

Judy Chu:

How does, what does socialisation and development look like when we start with the understanding as the infant study show us that we're born into relationships with a capacity and desire for relationships,

Judy Chu:

and that we need those essential connections to ourselves and to other people in order to thrive.

Judy Chu:

And these days, the research has since shown that it's also not just crucial to mental health and psychological wellbeing, but it's crucial to our physical wellbeing.

Judy Chu:

And so there's just been in the decades since I started studying it, so much kind of corroboration of the fact that yes, relationships are more important than they were given credit for.

Judy Chu:

And, and then what does it mean to kind of really incorporate that into the way that we live our lives?

Judy Chu:

Because so much of our societal systems and structures are still designed as though we aren't all interrelated and connected.

Judy Chu:

You know, that, that somehow we can cut off a portion, you know, some groups or disenfranchise, you know, certain, certain populations and not feel impact and not be impacted by that.

Judy Chu:

That doesn't make sense when we look from a relational model.

Judy Chu:

And so that, you know, that definitely drew me.

Judy Chu:

And then the, the kind of spark that set it all off was that boy saying, come and interview me.

Judy Chu:

Because I think if anything, I felt a little shy.

Judy Chu:

Like, I'm like, you know, like I said, I was saying like people said the adolescent boys wanted to talk to you.

Judy Chu:

I mean, when I went into the school for boy, because I started out studying adolescent boys, 'cause again, it was an adolescent boy, a 13-year-old who, who kind of challenged me and invited me to do it, to, to study boys.

Judy Chu:

But, you know, it was a school for 12 to 18 year olds and everyone was like, yo, you'll be lucky if five or 10 boys talk to you.

Judy Chu:

And so I just invited everyone and just to see like, who, who would come.

Judy Chu:

And I got more volunteers than I had time to interview.

Judy Chu:

I ended up interviewing 58 people 'cause I didn't leave enough time.

Judy Chu:

'cause I thought I would only get five or 10.

Judy Chu:

But it, I ended up doing, you know, almost 60 interviews in the shortened amount of time that I had set aside to do interviews because they had something to say.

Judy Chu:

And I had, like I said, I, before I did the interviews with both ages, I started out with just participant observations hanging out in the halls, letting them ask me why I was there when teacher even said, I

Judy Chu:

can't believe you're getting credit at Harvard for do, for hanging out in the hallway and observing boys.

Judy Chu:

And I said, yeah, apparently it's a thing.

Judy Chu:

And so like, but they, you know, the boys could kind of ask me like, what are you studying?

Judy Chu:

Why are you here?

Judy Chu:

What are you trying to learn?

Judy Chu:

And when, when I asked for volunteers, they said, well, yeah, I can tell you about this.

Judy Chu:

And like I said, they were wonderful and they were thoughtful and they had a lot of really rich stories about what it's like and what they're, what they're thinking about and what they're trying to figure out.

Sandy Ruxton:

Yep.

Sandy Ruxton:

And you reminded me when you're talking about, um, some research in the uk um, I think it was called Young Masculinities by Frosh and Pattman and Phoenix.

Sandy Ruxton:

Yes, yes.

Sandy Ruxton:

I know.

Sandy Ruxton:

And they, they also said, you know, given the right conditions, boys are perfectly happy to talk.

Sandy Ruxton:

You know, they want to talk, you know, and I think their thing also was in a group they might present differently from, from how they would on their own.

Sandy Ruxton:

But, uh, but that certainly backs up what you are saying.

Sandy Ruxton:

But, um, I was thinking also about, you know, in your, in your own book, you talk a bit about your relationship with your own son, don't you?

Sandy Ruxton:

And I'm wondering about the sort of interrelationship, interconnection between your parenting and your research.

Sandy Ruxton:

But, uh, you may or may not want to talk about that of course.

Sandy Ruxton:

But, um, uh, how are they connected?

Judy Chu:

Well, like my son definitely grew up with my, while I was working on my book, which took a lot longer to write.

Judy Chu:

'cause I thought, being a new parent, I was like, yeah, I'll just write the book when he's napping.

Judy Chu:

And of course, the reality of parenting hit me like a, you know, was not what I had imagined.

Judy Chu:

And so it, it took a long longer, but, but actually it was really helpful for me 'cause I found that as a parent, it's so easy to doubt yourself.

Judy Chu:

It's so easy to worry about whether you're doing what's right and best for your kid.

Judy Chu:

I mean, every night when the minute my head hits the pillow, I'm thinking, oh, I shouldn't have said this.

Judy Chu:

I shouldn't have done this.

Judy Chu:

I should have done this instead.

Judy Chu:

And so I definitely can, you know, relate to parents being, wanting what's best for their kids, worrying about the choices that they're making and the repercussions that we'll have.

Judy Chu:

And I, it was actually really helpful for me to be focusing on, you know, to be reminded by what the boys and their parents had taught me.

Judy Chu:

Of what of um, it kind of provided a compass in, in many ways.

Judy Chu:

And then when I checked in with Carol, 'cause she was all, she's been supportive throughout, you know, ever since I met her.

Judy Chu:

She, she, we continue to stay in touch and she was like, you know what's true from what you learn from the boys?

Judy Chu:

And so when you start to get sucked into, you know, all the noise about, you know, boys are like this, boys are like that.

Judy Chu:

She's like, you have an have the privilege of having heard from boys themselves and learned from boys themselves what they are like and what they're capable of and you can trust.

Judy Chu:

So I don't, I wasn't left to just trust my instincts.

Judy Chu:

I actually had data to say, no, this, this is true.

Judy Chu:

And, and, and it's, it's going to be okay.

Judy Chu:

And even though people are saying, oh, you know, shyness in boys is a problem, I'm like, actually it's not a problem.

Judy Chu:

And I could, I could kind of feel like the re I, I I feel like someone had my back, you know, that it wasn't me standing alone saying, no, I think boys really have feelings.

Judy Chu:

You know, I think it's okay if they feel these things.

Judy Chu:

And, and, and also like the, the boys' fathers were so, their advice, 'cause I, you know, I transcribed those meetings and I'd listen to what they were saying was

Judy Chu:

so helpful because it showed me that you're we're playing the long game, right?

Judy Chu:

And so, you know, you might mess up in this instance, but these relationships, they're resilient.

Judy Chu:

And one of the fathers especially really demonstrated over and over again that your kids don't need you to be perfect.

Judy Chu:

In fact, they don't, it's not helpful if you act like you are, 'cause what they need from you.

Judy Chu:

And he shared so many wonderful stories about this, was like, they need to see you mess up sometimes and own up to it and kind of figure out what to do when you mess up and how can you keep learning?

Judy Chu:

And it's through those imperfections that gives them permission to be imperfect, but then also gives them inspiration to strive towards.

Judy Chu:

Like, oh, okay, this is how I can do it.

Judy Chu:

It doesn't, it's not about control and about presenting this picture perfect image to the world, but it's really about figuring it out together and knowing that we're all in this together instead of alone.

Judy Chu:

You know, trying to prove something to some, to someone that, you know, doesn't even care about us.

Judy Chu:

You know, like this idea again, of proving masculinity, but to whom.

Judy Chu:

And so if we can, um, that was helpful for me because again, uh, as someone who tends to, tended to grow, grew up.

Judy Chu:

Playing by the rules and thinking it was important to meet every societal expectation and to present in the ways that people expected me to.

Judy Chu:

It was this research really helped to kind of validate my own doubts and my own questions, but at the same time affirm the fact that I knew something about at least myself and my, my son.

Judy Chu:

Nobody knows our kids better than we do, right?

Judy Chu:

Mm-hmm.

Judy Chu:

And nobody has the opportunity to be there for them in the ways that we can, you know, if we happen to be, have access to them and, and see them on a daily basis.

Judy Chu:

And so we can, we can be really, um, positive influences.

Judy Chu:

Not perfect influences, but present and positive in, you know.

Sandy Ruxton:

And, and given all you've said about the importance of, you know, relationships and connection, um, particularly to boys, you know, how do you feel about sort of more contemporary development

Sandy Ruxton:

of the manosphere and how young men are being drawn into it and, and also into, into far right politics.

Sandy Ruxton:

What, what should we be doing to draw them away from these things without perpetuating a sense of, you know, opposition between women and men, or notions that boys are somehow under attack or victims of feminism?

Sandy Ruxton:

Yeah,

Judy Chu:

I think that's a great question, and I think it's a big discussion.

Judy Chu:

We could easily talk for hours about it, but at the risk of oversimplifying it, I think.

Judy Chu:

What we can do in a nutshell is offer alternatives because they're going there, or they're finding their way there with, because they have questions that are real questions and absolutely appropriate age appropriate questions.

Judy Chu:

Like, again, they go in because, you know, how do you, how do you make yourself attractive?

Judy Chu:

How do you have friends?

Judy Chu:

How do you, you know, how do you attract a mate?

Judy Chu:

How do you imp you know, how do you succeed?

Judy Chu:

How do you get other people to see you as success?

Judy Chu:

Successful?

Judy Chu:

How do you direct, you know, all these questions are questions that are normal and that everyone has, right?

Judy Chu:

And, but the thing is, I think, um, one of, okay, if I can give an example, there's this thing at Stanford, they have a policy, like any party that offers alcohol has to offer an EANAB.

Judy Chu:

And EANAB stands for equally attractive non-alcoholic beverage.

Judy Chu:

So if you're gonna have a party in addition to beer or whatever, is there, you have to have like, not just water, you know, you can't say like either have beer or you can have water.

Judy Chu:

You had to have like something like, you know, a fruity spritz or whatever, soda.

Judy Chu:

And so, um, and so I think what we can do is we can offer boys inab.

Judy Chu:

And one of the things that they really want, again, as all humans want, is they want a connection.

Judy Chu:

They want time and face-to-face time with real people, with real interactions.

Judy Chu:

And I feel like it's so easy, and I get it, 'cause adults are addicted to their phones and screens too.

Judy Chu:

It's really tempting.

Judy Chu:

It's so easy to kind of get our, have our eyes and our brains sucked into the constant barrage of entertainment that is available online.

Judy Chu:

But kids, you'll, you'll see this in.

Judy Chu:

And that's one thing I have observed, you know, in everywhere that I've travelled, kids and also, you know, adults, they're trying to get your attention.

Judy Chu:

If you would look away from your phone, they much prefer having you.

Judy Chu:

You know when, when, uh, Sean, oh my goodness, I'm forgetting his name.

Judy Chu:

He's based in Australia and I met him at the Fathering Summit last a couple months ago.

Judy Chu:

But he had, he said, you're, you are your child's favourite toy.

Judy Chu:

And I loved that because I'm like, I think that can be applied to other ages as well.

Judy Chu:

At the end of the day, we want someone else's attention, and there's really no substitute for that.

Judy Chu:

And I think that if we, a simple practical thing that parents can do to draw their kids away from influences that they might not, that, that might not be helping them, is to offer them, you know, let's go outside.

Judy Chu:

Let's take a trip, let's have a talk.

Judy Chu:

You know, let's go for a walk.

Judy Chu:

The kids will most likely, you know, like you're saying with, um, Frosh and Pattman, they'll take you up on it.

Judy Chu:

If you're show, if you show an interest in a person and you really curious about what, how they're doing and what's going on with them, most of the, most people, most of the time will take you up on that offer.

Judy Chu:

They absolutely want that.

Judy Chu:

Those, that's what real memories are made of.

Judy Chu:

I always tell my son, I'm like, you're not going to, you know, think back like, oh, remember that time the five of us are sitting around and we were all on our phones.

Judy Chu:

That's not gonna be a memory for you.

Judy Chu:

You're going to remember like the impact of having an exchange and feeling something transpire, you know, something meaningful.

Judy Chu:

You know, it doesn't have to be like this life shattering you, huge moment, but it's just being with other people.

Judy Chu:

As one of the 12-year-old boys that I interviewed said, you know, that feeling that someone else understands and can relate, whether it's a positive experience or a negative feeling, he just, it just kind of comforts.

Judy Chu:

And I think that captures it really well.

Judy Chu:

Just knowing we're not alone in experiencing the many things that we're experiencing.

Judy Chu:

We all crave that kind of connection.

Judy Chu:

It's a powerful and healing connection.

Judy Chu:

And I think that one of the reasons I am not super fond of screens is I feel like it takes it away.

Judy Chu:

It takes away from that I'm not all a hundred, I'm not saying like, throw away your screens.

Judy Chu:

I get that they're useful, but I'm just saying that we need to balance a better balance.

Judy Chu:

And so that's one simple thing people can do to say, offer them an enab, you know, the manosphere out there.

Judy Chu:

But you know what, previously there were, there was television, there was video, and things have always been out there.

Judy Chu:

Um, I I say that Neil Postman's book, you know, um, Amusing Ourselves to Death was very prescient, right?

Judy Chu:

Mm-hmm.

Judy Chu:

Being, and we basically have a more extreme and intense version of that.

Judy Chu:

But when you invite externally creative media into your home, it's like inviting a stranger, you know, into, you know, into your children's lives.

Judy Chu:

And we would watch that.

Judy Chu:

We would be careful.

Judy Chu:

We would be more careful.

Judy Chu:

And I think we can, I mean, I'm not saying it's easy, it's everywhere.

Judy Chu:

So it's feels very challenging.

Judy Chu:

But again, from what I've heard from boys themselves, and men and people of all genders and ages, they wanna connect.

Judy Chu:

And when we offer them those opportunities, they take us up on that.

Judy Chu:

Yeah.

Sandy Ruxton:

Yeah.

Sandy Ruxton:

Well I'm very grateful that you've, uh, you know, come onto to our podcast and held our attention for all this time.

Sandy Ruxton:

Um, it was just really interesting to hear you talking about your work, so I'm very, very grateful and I'm sure Stephen is too.

Stephen Burrell:

Absolutely.

Stephen Burrell:

Yeah, I mean, I was just thinking, I'm not surprised that the boys wanted to talk to you because I, you felt you're very easy and pleasant to talk to.

Stephen Burrell:

So, uh, so thank you so much for, for doing your work and, and coming on the show.

Stephen Burrell:

We really appreciate it.

Judy Chu:

Thank you so much for your thoughtful questions and for your very kind responses and for your patience with me.

Judy Chu:

'cause I know, I do, I get very excited about this work 'cause I, I just think these boys, likewise are boys have something really wonderful to share and I, and you know,

Judy Chu:

I just hope that they get the opportunity to show people all that they're capable of.

Judy Chu:

'cause I think that they really get kind of shortchanged a lot of times in how they're represented.

Judy Chu:

When we can listen and lean in.

Judy Chu:

We see a lot of wonderful things and it gives a lot of reasons to have hope.

Music:

Mm, absolutely.

Music:

Thank you Judy.

Music:

Thanks so much.

Sandy Ruxton:

So I loved listening to Judy talking about her work there, particularly the, the importance of human relations and the depth and complexity of, of those and how those apply to, to boys and men

Sandy Ruxton:

as, as well as women and girls, you know, um, that were not, uh, she didn't say this, but it occurred to me whilst we were talking, we're not, you know, as men just Robinson Crusoe sitting on an island.

Sandy Ruxton:

We're not, uh, part of the Lord of the Flies world, Golding's work, you know, where boys are just, uh, abusing each other through the hierarchies.

Sandy Ruxton:

I mean, you know, uh, it's great to hear a, a positive picture about how boys are, how they can be, and you know, what, what the influences on them are.

Sandy Ruxton:

So, you know, what did you think, Stephen?

Stephen Burrell:

No, I totally agree.

Stephen Burrell:

It was very, very powerful.

Stephen Burrell:

And I must confess on a personal level, I, I was hugely impacted by the work of Carol Gilligan, who Judy mentioned, and then that led me to read Judy's book.

Stephen Burrell:

And I, yeah, I was so touched by it, and I actually think, you know, I, yeah, it just really resonates with my own experience, really, because yeah, I feel like when I was a young boy, you know, I, I think I was always

Stephen Burrell:

very sensitive and like, I remember that my closest friends were girls when I was, you know, very young.

Stephen Burrell:

But then I do remember at a certain age, you know, you start, I start to have that girls are seen as gross, you know, and that you, you're not allowed to have those mixed gender friendships anymore.

Stephen Burrell:

And yeah, I mean, I can really relate to having to, you know, push down many parts of yourself.

Sandy Ruxton:

Yeah, she mentions in some of her work, um, the difference between, I think it's, um, explicit and implicit resistance to, you know, uh, masculine norms.

Sandy Ruxton:

Um, and the implicit is about, you know, what you just, you just do without really thinking about it.

Sandy Ruxton:

The explicit is you, you say stuff about what you are happy or unhappy with.

Sandy Ruxton:

I mean, does that resonate for you?

Stephen Burrell:

It does.

Stephen Burrell:

It does.

Stephen Burrell:

Yes.

Stephen Burrell:

I mean, I think, yeah, as I said, I think in some ways I would've been engaging in implicit resistance, uh, because it felt these norms felt so unnatural to me and like I was having

Stephen Burrell:

to really fit into something that I didn't, that just didn't feel right or feel comfortable.

Stephen Burrell:

But then on the other hand, you know, I probably didn't resist as much as I would've liked really on, on a, you know, well, certainly in that more explicit way.

Stephen Burrell:

Yes.

Stephen Burrell:

I maybe, maybe, you know, privately I, I kept alive that, that more sensitive part of myself.

Stephen Burrell:

But I, I guess I wish I would have, you know, spoken more explicitly about it as well.

Stephen Burrell:

I think probably as I became a teenager, in some ways, I guess I was lucky.

Stephen Burrell:

I, you know, had parents who were very loving and, uh, who maybe encouraged those, like outspoken, you know, more rebellious sides of myself to be expressed.

Stephen Burrell:

So maybe I started to do that more, uh, as a teenager.

Stephen Burrell:

But, um, but yeah, I, I, I think also I probably, I was quite good at understanding, okay, what do I have to do to fit in, even if actually I'm not fully comfortable with that.

Stephen Burrell:

Um, yeah.

Stephen Burrell:

What about you?

Sandy Ruxton:

Yeah, yeah.

Sandy Ruxton:

That, that point you just made there about, you know, uh, working out how to fit in, you know, if you

Sandy Ruxton:

if you're kind of good at football or something mm-hmm.

Sandy Ruxton:

You know, then you're part of the in proud, you know, and, um, uh, so I definitely re remember that.

Sandy Ruxton:

But the issue about resistance, I mean, the, the example that I can think of is, you know, I went to a, an all boys school, which had a cadet force.

Sandy Ruxton:

Mm-hmm.

Sandy Ruxton:

I probably mentioned this in the podcast before, but, but you know, at a certain point you could make choices about, uh, your engagement.

Sandy Ruxton:

You had to do two compulsory years.

Sandy Ruxton:

And, um, in year one, I think I learned how to, how to kill people, you know, how to shoot people.

Sandy Ruxton:

And year two, I thought, well, I don't really want to do any more of that, you know?

Sandy Ruxton:

Yeah.

Sandy Ruxton:

And so I went for what was called First Aid and Light Rescue.

Sandy Ruxton:

'cause I thought, well, at least knowing First Aid might be of some, some use, you know, in terms of, um, um, caring for others.

Sandy Ruxton:

So I did that and, and that was a sort of, uh, conscious choice, but I don't remember going around saying to other boys, young men Yeah.

Sandy Ruxton:

Don't, don't go down the militaristic route.

Sandy Ruxton:

Yeah.

Sandy Ruxton:

You know?

Sandy Ruxton:

Um, so in a way it was, it was implicit resistance.

Stephen Burrell:

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Burrell:

Um,

Sandy Ruxton:

yeah,

Stephen Burrell:

I was thinking about, um.

Stephen Burrell:

You know, the important role we as men can play in showing boys, you know, that that kind of resistance is possible and good, and, and that these parts of ourselves are

Stephen Burrell:

actually really important and, and valuable and we need them and we should express them.

Stephen Burrell:

Because I was thinking as well, like, is there a risk that, well, yeah, I, I certainly don't think the idea here is that we responsible women for this, right?

Stephen Burrell:

Bec because I think back to the episode with Evangel, Angelica Ferrara, I think that often is what happens, isn't it?

Stephen Burrell:

Is that if men are going to express these sides of themselves anywhere, it probably is in relationships with women because maybe those are the only spaces where they feel comfortable to do so.

Stephen Burrell:

And on the flip side, maybe there's a risk that we blame mothers, right?

Stephen Burrell:

For like, oh, you know, mothers aren't raising their sons, you know, effectively because, you know, maybe they're not helping them to develop these skills or express them enough.

Stephen Burrell:

So I think it really shows, isn't it the need for us as men to play a more active role in showing boys and helping boys, you know, to, um, to express these relational parts of ourselves.

Stephen Burrell:

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Burrell:

Yeah.

Sandy Ruxton:

But it was interesting that quite a lot of what she was talking about was very much on the sort of day-to-day micro level between individuals, wasn't it?

Sandy Ruxton:

You know?

Sandy Ruxton:

And I mean, clearly there's, there's probably quite a lot more that could be said about how, you know, one can provide the conditions where those interactions can be, uh, effective.

Sandy Ruxton:

So for instance, in school, you know, what would be a, a whole school approach to relationships and, you know, education, uh, and so on.

Sandy Ruxton:

Um, I mean, I know there are schools that do think about these things, but when I think about back to my own experience, you know, I went to what was quite an academic school and, you know, results was the thing that mattered.

Sandy Ruxton:

And I, I don't really think, and I, I, I felt this at the time that, that relationships was really, you know, valued, if I'm honest.

Sandy Ruxton:

Um, you know, it was all for the greater good.

Sandy Ruxton:

Of the school.

Stephen Burrell:

It, what's interesting is that, 'cause I feel like at primary school level, maybe there is more of that celebration of kindness and compassion and care.

Stephen Burrell:

Uh, and then as you get to secondary school, it becomes a bit different to that.

Stephen Burrell:

But although even at primary school, I think there can still be that kind of competitiveness being encouraged.

Stephen Burrell:

And um, I was thinking as well in terms of culture, you know, how can we offer a wider spectrum to boys through our culture?

Stephen Burrell:

Because I think so much of what they watch, for example, on film and TV is very much about that independent, self-reliant, you know, um, competitive, uh, self.

Stephen Burrell:

Um, but I'd say just because, um, Judy mentioned Mr. Rogers, who I think people in the UK might not necessarily be familiar with, but I think he had this very big children's TV show in the us.

Stephen Burrell:

Um, the only reason I know this is because there's a film about him called A Beautiful Day in the Neighbourhood, and it stars Tom Hanks and it's very lovely, powerful film.

Stephen Burrell:

And I think he was somebody who in the, in the mainstream culture was offering a, a really kind, gentle, caring man.

Stephen Burrell:

Man.

Stephen Burrell:

Um, I guess in the UK people, somebody like David Attenborough perhaps, you know, um, it's interesting that it's often older men, isn't it?

Stephen Burrell:

You don't really, yeah.

Stephen Burrell:

See younger men, you don't see examples of that in the culture necessarily, but yeah.

Sandy Ruxton:

Yeah.

Sandy Ruxton:

I, I suppose there was a couple of questions which I, I, on reflection think it would've been interesting to ask, but, uh, uh, didn't get a chance to.

Sandy Ruxton:

One was about, you know, the whole notion of masculine norms.

Sandy Ruxton:

I mean, we often sort of frame those as if they're always negative.

Sandy Ruxton:

And I, I, I dunno whether that's true.

Sandy Ruxton:

You know, you could say that there are some, um, norms like, uh, I don't know, um, taking responsibility or, you know, respect for others, which, which, you know, could be considered to be part of masculine norms.

Sandy Ruxton:

And so, uh, I would've been interested to hear what she had to say about that.

Sandy Ruxton:

And, and the other issue was about, um, how being gay or non-binary, you know, might fit into her, uh, analysis.

Sandy Ruxton:

Um, you know, because we didn't really talk about that.

Sandy Ruxton:

And I'm sure she would've had lots to say about it.

Sandy Ruxton:

But, uh,

Stephen Burrell:

I think, no, I think those are such good points.

Stephen Burrell:

And it takes, it makes me think about our discussion with Finn Mackay, for example.

Stephen Burrell:

Yeah.

Stephen Burrell:

You know, about, uh, about if positive masculinity is the thing we should be, we should be kinda proposing or offering to boys and men.

Stephen Burrell:

Because, because actually I think what Judy said on that was, was very powerful, wasn't it?

Stephen Burrell:

That it's not about simply trying to replace something we associate with masculinity, with something we associate with femininity.

Stephen Burrell:

It's actually just opening up the whole thing, isn't it?

Stephen Burrell:

And just allowing all of us to express all parts of ourselves as honestly and authentically as possible, regardless of whether that's associated.

Stephen Burrell:

Well, it just shouldn't be associated with one gender or the other, should it?

Stephen Burrell:

These are all just human qualities, which we all have in our own varied, interesting, distinct ways.

Stephen Burrell:

Yeah.

Sandy Ruxton:

Yes.

Sandy Ruxton:

That's probably enough from us though, isn't it, Stephen?

Sandy Ruxton:

We,

Stephen Burrell:

it probably is, for one day.

Stephen Burrell:

Yes.

Sandy Ruxton:

We've talked for 10 minutes or so.

Stephen Burrell:

Oh gosh, yes.

Stephen Burrell:

Well, thank you.

Stephen Burrell:

Yeah, thank you Sandy.

Stephen Burrell:

And, um, yes, I'm very pleased to be able to have a relationship with you.

Stephen Burrell:

Aw.

Sandy Ruxton:

I noticed you put me on LinkedIn.

Sandy Ruxton:

You called me delightful recently, which I, I was very impressed by that.

Sandy Ruxton:

It's an

Stephen Burrell:

understatement.

Sandy Ruxton:

I'll to think, I'll think of an adjective for you soon.

Stephen Burrell:

Very good.

Stephen Burrell:

Well, and thank you to our delightful listeners as well.

Stephen Burrell:

Um, and please do get in touch with us and nowandmen@gmail.com if you want to relate with us in any way.

Stephen Burrell:

Um, and do subscribe to the podcast if you haven't done so already.

Stephen Burrell:

And we'll be back soon.

Sandy Ruxton:

Bye for now.

Stephen Burrell:

Thank you.

Stephen Burrell:

Goodbye.

All Episodes Previous Episode

Listen for free

Show artwork for Now and Men

About the Podcast

Now and Men
Changing Masculinities, Challenging Norms
What role can men play in achieving gender equality?
Why is feminism good for men?
How are rigid ideas about masculinity holding back our lives—and how are people around the world challenging them?

These are the questions at the heart of Now and Men, a podcast hosted by social researchers Dr Stephen Burrell (Lecturer at the University of Melbourne, Australia) and Sandy Ruxton (Independent Researcher and Honorary Fellow at Durham University, UK).

We explore masculinity and change in the lives of men and boys today, diving into issues such as gender-based violence, fatherhood, men’s health, politics and the environment. Grounded in feminist thinking, our conversations connect big ideas to everyday experiences—showing how gender shapes all of us, and how men can be part of building a more equal world.

At a time when regressive versions of masculinity are resurging—amplified by political leaders, online influencers, even podcasters—we spotlight the people pushing back. Each episode features inspiring voices working to engage men and boys in positive, transformative ways and imagining feminist futures.

New episodes drop every month. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts, and join us in exploring what healthy, caring, equitable paths forward can look like for men. Questions or comments? We’d love to hear from you at nowandmen@gmail.com.

About your hosts

Stephen Burrell

Profile picture for Stephen Burrell
I am a Lecturer in Criminology at the University of Melbourne. I'm originally from the UK, and moved to Australia at the beginning of 2024. My research is about men, masculinities, and violence. I am particularly interested in the prevention of men's violence - especially violence against women, and violence against the environment - and promoting care as an alternative. I'm a big fan of feminism, drinking tea, connecting with nature, eating vegan snacks, and listening to heavy metal.

Sandy Ruxton

Profile picture for Sandy Ruxton
Honorary Research Fellow in the Department of Sociology at Durham University (UK). Independent researcher, expert on men and masculinities. Previous policy work on human rights, children and families, poverty and social exclusion, and asylum and migration. Programme experience with boys and young men in schools, community, and prisons. Steering Committee member, MenEngage Europe. Volunteer for OX4 Food Crew. Chess-player, bike-rider, tree-hugger. Great grandfather edited Boy's Own Paper, but was sacked.