Episode 54

full
Published on:

15th May 2025

'Patriarchy Inc.': Gender Equality at Work - Prof Cordelia Fine

Why do men still benefit from higher pay, status, and power at work? What is the ideological and cultural underpinning that sustains the gendered division of labour? What are the harmful effects of workplace inequality on poverty, health, family life and women’s status? These are some of the key issues that Professor Cordelia Fine addresses in her witty and insightful new book ‘Patriarchy Inc.: What We Get Wrong About Gender Equality and Why Men Still Win at Work’, which is listed as one of the non-fiction books to read this year by the UK Financial Times. 

In our discussion, Cordelia draws on a wealth of evidence to explain how ‘Patriarchy Inc.’ operates, and how progress in dismantling unequal gender arrangements is stymied by two false visions: the ‘Diversity, Equality and Inclusion (DEI)’ approach, and the ‘Different but Equal’ perspective. Instead, she argues for a set of commonsense reforms which would benefit everyone. These include reorientating societies and workplaces around the assumption that most workers will have caring responsibilities; setting aside definitions of job ‘fit’ and success that exclude women and other marginalised groups; and addressing how the gender system is embedded in childhood. 

We also explore some of the themes from her earlier book, Testosterone Rex, which won the Royal Society Science Book Prize. The book challenges the powerful myth that men and women have evolved fundamentally different natures, and that testosterone is responsible for ‘hard-wiring’ male brains to, for example, take risks, compete, and be violent.  We conclude by discussing her motivations and influences as a writer, and the role of humour in her work. 

Cordelia is Professor in the History and Philosophy of Science at the University of Melbourne. She was awarded the prestigious 2018 Edinburgh Medal for her work challenging gender bias in science, and was recently named as a living legend by The Australian newspaper. 

Episode timeline

  • Intro
  • Why Cordelia wanted to write ‘Patriarchy Inc.’ (03:49-08:01)
  • Why she takes issue with the ‘Different but Equal’ perspective (08:01-15:30)
  • Why the ‘DEI’ approach is also insufficient (15:30-27:06)
  • What her ‘Patriarchy Inc.’ approach adds (27:06-33:42)
  • How we can foster genuine equality in the workplace and society (33:42-42:41)
  • Break
  • ‘Testosterone Rex’ and why men’s violence can’t be reduced to biology (42:52-50:55)
  • Fatherhood and why Patriarchy Inc. doesn't work for any of us (50:55-52:12)
  • The use of humour in writing (52:12-55:38)
  • What led Cordelia into researching the science of sex and gender (55:38-01:00:13)
  • Conclusion [The nuances of DEI, Progress being non-linear, The role of trade unions, Capitalism and fatherhood, Valuing care] (01:00:22-01:06:49)
Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

Listen for free

Show artwork for Now and Men

About the Podcast

Now and Men
Changing Masculinities, Challenging Norms
What role can men play in achieving gender equality?
Why is feminism good for men?
How are rigid ideas about masculinity holding back our lives—and how are people around the world challenging them?

These are the questions at the heart of Now and Men, a podcast hosted by social researchers Dr Stephen Burrell (Lecturer at the University of Melbourne, Australia) and Sandy Ruxton (Independent Researcher and Honorary Fellow at Durham University, UK).

We explore masculinity and change in the lives of men and boys today, diving into issues such as gender-based violence, fatherhood, men’s health, politics and the environment. Grounded in feminist thinking, our conversations connect big ideas to everyday experiences—showing how gender shapes all of us, and how men can be part of building a more equal world.

At a time when regressive versions of masculinity are resurging—amplified by political leaders, online influencers, even podcasters—we spotlight the people pushing back. Each episode features inspiring voices working to engage men and boys in positive, transformative ways and imagining feminist futures.

New episodes drop every month. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts, and join us in exploring what healthy, caring, equitable paths forward can look like for men. Questions or comments? We’d love to hear from you at nowandmen@gmail.com.

About your hosts

Stephen Burrell

Profile picture for Stephen Burrell
I am a Lecturer in Criminology at the University of Melbourne. I'm originally from the UK, and moved to Australia at the beginning of 2024. My research is about men, masculinities, and violence. I am particularly interested in the prevention of men's violence - especially violence against women, and violence against the environment - and promoting care as an alternative. I'm a big fan of feminism, drinking tea, connecting with nature, eating vegan snacks, and listening to heavy metal.

Sandy Ruxton

Profile picture for Sandy Ruxton
Honorary Research Fellow in the Department of Sociology at Durham University (UK). Independent researcher, expert on men and masculinities. Previous policy work on human rights, children and families, poverty and social exclusion, and asylum and migration. Programme experience with boys and young men in schools, community, and prisons. Steering Committee member, MenEngage Europe. Volunteer for OX4 Food Crew. Chess-player, bike-rider, tree-hugger. Great grandfather edited Boy's Own Paper, but was sacked.